[Spinballwizard]

So after Cruizer's question on time over ring shenanigans, I decided to randomly go through the rules and poke into some ambiguities.

GENERAL RULES
"Statistics are taken from the time the timer stops. This is usually when the signpost, goal ring or the capsule is hit, though in some levels it may apply to other events, eg. in Wing Fortress, time is taken from when the screen fades out. Scores are taken after all the relevant act bonuses are added."

By this wording, the time over shanigans are semi-legal because technically, the timer stops at time over. Perhaps "Statistics are taken upon completion of the level. This is usually when the signpost, goal ring, or the capsule is hit..." and keeping all the other stuff. Maybe adding a mention of a results screen except on the exceptions listed.

Also, the "you can only use the listed character for the stat in question" rule has mysteriously vanished, so theoretically it is legal to use Sonic + Tails in Sonic 2/3/K. I thought this was ruled not to be the case.

SONIC 2 SCORE DIVISIONS
Shouldn't it just be "Entering a special stage is not allowed."? Theoretically, as written, Sonic can enter a special stage, get the ring/gem bonuses, continue the level, and have a legitimate score.

It's also worth noting that the second half of the written Knuckles rule ("nor is dying after hitting a starpost.") is redundant considering general rules. ("Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).")

SONIC & KNUCKLES SCORE DIVISIONS
"In Lava Reef 1, you can't destroy a badnik which came from the same origin as a badnik you already destroyed." - Add Mushroom Hill 1 and 2, as you can continuously go back and spawn new mole-bots.

SONIC ADVENTURE (DX) FREESTYLE DIVISION
Explanation on why HS-G is in Freestyle should be present, I think.

RING DIVISIONS
Should this rule -- "In Twinkle Park and Lost World, you can't hit a switch to create any more rings after any such rings have already been collected once." -- be there as well? Again, kinda redundant with General, but yeah.

SONIC ADVENTURE 2 (BATTLE) SCORE DIVISIONS
Shouldn't there be the Knuckles/Rouge digging clause here?

SONIC UNLEASHED WII/PS2 RING DIVISIONS
Maybe reword it so it sounds less weird and more consistent with the charts. "Ring statistics on night stages must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths)."

SONIC ADVANCE 3
Chaotix rule should be in effect since linked co-op play is possible, however unplausible. (Theoretically, it's possible on bosses, I'd think, but I've never co-opped Adv3 so I don't know for sure.) i.e. "You must use single-player mode (computer-controlled partner)."

[douglas]

Also, the "you can only use the listed character for the stat in question" rule has mysteriously vanished, so theoretically it is legal to use Sonic + Tails in Sonic 2/3/K. I thought this was ruled not to be the case.

That has been re-visited and deemed legal.

[Luxray]

Also, the "you can only use the listed character for the stat in question" rule has mysteriously vanished, so theoretically it is legal to use Sonic + Tails in Sonic 2/3/K. I thought this was ruled not to be the case.

That has been re-visited and deemed legal.

wait what? you can use S+T or just T in levels?

[Thorn]

^ Both. You just can't control the second player, just like how the AI has to control player two in Chaotix, Shadow the Hedgehog, and Sonic Advance 3 rankings.

Also there is still a Rivals 2 rule missing regarding not earning scores in Free Play mode. The level results screen doesn't show a score in free play, but the score counter runs in the background and will print records to the statistics screen regardless: without the AI rival there to impose a time limit, score spamming is possible.

Sonic 3 requires a rule regarding tricks that can be achieved in the PC version or Sonic Jam version but not the Genesis version or any emulation thereof. The first trick that comes to mind is going over the ceiling in Launch Base 2 Sonic or Tails in a spot that only works on the disc versions. The same rule should probably clarify that the converse is not true: for example, the Marble Garden 2 horizontal wrap zip can't be done on PC or Saturn, but is allowed and can be done on the Genesis version. I believe SM explained this restriction in terms of the rarity of the disc versions...

...which brings up the interesting question of the newfound slight advantages given to the disc versions in certain bosses in Sonic 3D Blast. It's only a second in most cases, but Sonic 3D Blast boss levels have a much tighter time restriction for a good rank on TSC than time charts for most other games. Strangely enough, the disc versions have disadvantages in ring/score divisions. The rarity of the versions and great differences in Special Stages was the main reasoning behind not introducing Special Stage charts, but it's being allowed in Time divisions. Interpret that as you will.

Sort of rare cases that I never got around to bugging Zeupar to add are in Chaotix. Firstly, what is Special Stage 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 1-2 in game are labeled as Stage 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in the Stage Select. Judging by some of the records, I'd say people have already submitted for the wrong stages. Another quirk is that activating the Stage Select also activates a free-movement mode when the game is paused. Moving while paused is already addressed, but while this mode is active, screen fades continue to happen while the game is paused. This allows you to cheat the timer in several stages, and since all of said stages are easily accessible from the title screen (Introduction and Isolated Island 1, 2, 3, and 4), I propose that the Stage Select cheat either be banned for these stages, or a rule be added about pausing during a screen fade.

Sonic Battle has a glitch involving the mission in Amy's story where using a special attack on Rouge ends the battle. You can end the battle, then load up Challenge Mode and keep that condition, allowing for a two-second finish and easy points. It does not score well enough for TSC records[/s], but you can score high A to low S rank[/s]. I brought this glitch up years ago and got no response, so I'm submitting all of my stats when I get home from classes and to hell with replaying the entire game due to my high scores all being under this glitch.
EDIT: Submitted, and I was severely underestimating the glitch. I got a few records with no effort.

I can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's other quirks we just never fixed.

[DsSaster]

SONIC ADVENTURE 2 (BATTLE) SCORE DIVISIONS
Shouldn't there be the Knuckles/Rouge digging clause here?

Digging up items doesn't add on points to your score iirc.

[Parax]

Sonic 3 requires a rule regarding tricks that can be achieved in the PC version or Sonic Jam version but not the Genesis version or any emulation thereof.

...which brings up the interesting question of the newfound slight advantages given to the disc versions in certain bosses in Sonic 3D Blast.

We already allow tons of version differences, why is this any different?

[Spinballwizard]

SONIC ADVENTURE 2 (BATTLE) SCORE DIVISIONS
Shouldn't there be the Knuckles/Rouge digging clause here?

Digging up items doesn't add on points to your score iirc.

And what about the rings? I haven't done a hunting stage in a while, but yeah.

[Groudon]

RING DIVISIONS
Should this rule -- "In Twinkle Park and Lost World, you can't hit a switch to create any more rings after any such rings have already been collected once." -- be there as well? Again, kinda redundant with General, but yeah.

Those ring charts have been obsoleted anyway, so a complete removal would make the most sense.

SONIC UNLEASHED WII/PS2 RING DIVISIONS
Maybe reword it so it sounds less weird and more consistent with the charts. "Ring statistics on night stages must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths)."

The rule was put into effect because at some parts of levels, rings will respawn if you die.  However, there is already a general rule in effect that covers respawning rings (which you briefly touched upon in the SA(DX) one):  "For ring stats, you may not collect the same ring(s) more than once."

[Thorn]

Sonic 3 requires a rule regarding tricks that can be achieved in the PC version or Sonic Jam version but not the Genesis version or any emulation thereof.

...which brings up the interesting question of the newfound slight advantages given to the disc versions in certain bosses in Sonic 3D Blast.

We already allow tons of version differences, why is this any different?

It's different because there's already a ban on the S3&K version differences; it's just not stated in the rules. This is one of the few times that versions of a game have certain methods disallowed. But the reasoning for that -- that the version is uncommon -- could be applied to Sonic 3D as well.

[FuzZerd]

SONIC 2 SCORE DIVISIONS
It's also worth noting that the second half of the written Knuckles rule ("nor is dying after hitting a starpost.") is redundant considering general rules. ("Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).")

iirc when knuckles dies he gets back the rings he had when he hit the last checkpoint AND all the rings respawn.

SONIC & KNUCKLES SCORE DIVISIONS
"In Lava Reef 1, you can't destroy a badnik which came from the same origin as a badnik you already destroyed." - Add Mushroom Hill 1 and 2, as you can continuously go back and spawn new mole-bots.

these are currently allowed.  I believe the reasoning behind it is that the score gained is minor where as in LR1 99% of the score is gained from destroying the same badnik over and over again.

[Aitamen]

For General (or perhaps Chaotix Specific), it should be mentioned that you cannot submit a stat on a level where you didn't meet the "completion" pre-req.  You can get to the goal-post in Chaotix a HELL of a lot faster if you don't hit the switch to "clear" the level.

This needs to be appended, I believe.  (I've had times thrown out for it, but it's still not in the rules, afaict)

[Spinballwizard]

iirc when knuckles dies he gets back the rings he had when he hit the last checkpoint AND all the rings respawn.

...which invalidates a score run anyways, because there has been a death. That was my point in the clarification.

And as for MH1/2 vs. LR1, I only suggest adding MH to it because you're still getting the points for doing the same thing over again. Still involves minor scalping.

I wasn't even going to bring up the Advance 2 trick spamming method that I came up with, either.

[werster]

This also happens on Hill Top, with the rocks respawning. :(

[FuzZerd]

actually since the bonus is at the end of the level you could still count the extra rings towards your score since technically you'd be getting the points in a single life <_<

[Taillow]

Actually, Advance 3 isn't plausible for boss improvement anyhow since I think you can manipulate yourself well enough on every boss as it's defeated, and he has a long enough vulnerability time most every time to only have one person need to hit.

...put the rule anyhow.  If only because the after-defeat positioning can be manipulated well enough in a few places.

[Stefan]

Why do you need an explanation why the level is freestyle in SADX? I'm just curious why you'd need that. About SA2:B, digging up rings as rouge/knuckles does not increase your score, so it's not an issue.

[Parax]

...which invalidates a score run anyways, because there has been a death. That was my point in the clarification.

That rule isn't really enforced anyway. I know pretty much every score max in SRA involves spamming tricks then dying to play the level with the full trick bonus, and IIRC people have mentioned dying in Shadow to empty one of the gauges.

[Groudon]

IIRC people have mentioned dying in Shadow to empty one of the gauges.

It's not so much to empty the gauges as it is to reset all scores (example:  resetting a Hero score that would otherwise harm your final score when doing a Dark mission).

[Aitamen]

...every score max in SRA involves spamming tricks then dying to play the level with the full trick bonus...

There is no score tallied in the run, only bonuses... this was brought up at the time and then dismissed, unless I'm mistaken about said chatroom shenanigans

[Taillow]

...every score max in SRA involves spamming tricks then dying to play the level with the full trick bonus...

There is no score tallied in the run, only bonuses... this was brought up at the time and then dismissed, unless I'm mistaken about said chatroom shenanigans

It's a trick bonus.  As in get your trick bonus maxed before restarting and keeping the max trick bonus.  As in the bonus you get after you complete the level.

[Zeupar]

You nooblets... I have gotten the perfect score as Sonic and Blaze for MH1, MH2, ML1, ML2, CC1, CC2, HS1 and all the hidden islands without death abuse. <_<
I am not sure, though, if I will be able to do the same with the other stages, because I have not tried. >_>

Also there is still a Rivals 2 rule missing regarding not earning scores in Free Play mode. The level results screen doesn't show a score in free play, but the score counter runs in the background and will print records to the statistics screen regardless: without the AI rival there to impose a time limit, score spamming is possible.

I will add that rule tomorrow.

Sonic 3 requires a rule regarding tricks that can be achieved in the PC version or Sonic Jam version but not the Genesis version or any emulation thereof. The first trick that comes to mind is going over the ceiling in Launch Base 2 Sonic or Tails in a spot that only works on the disc versions. The same rule should probably clarify that the converse is not true: for example, the Marble Garden 2 horizontal wrap zip can't be done on PC or Saturn, but is allowed and can be done on the Genesis version. I believe SM explained this restriction in terms of the rarity of the disc versions...

...which brings up the interesting question of the newfound slight advantages given to the disc versions in certain bosses in Sonic 3D Blast. It's only a second in most cases, but Sonic 3D Blast boss levels have a much tighter time restriction for a good rank on TSC than time charts for most other games. Strangely enough, the disc versions have disadvantages in ring/score divisions. The rarity of the versions and great differences in Special Stages was the main reasoning behind not introducing Special Stage charts, but it's being allowed in Time divisions. Interpret that as you will.

I think that we should allow all of these disc version advantages to be coherent with TSC's standards.

[Aitamen]

...every score max in SRA involves spamming tricks then dying to play the level with the full trick bonus...

There is no score tallied in the run, only bonuses... this was brought up at the time and then dismissed, unless I'm mistaken about said chatroom shenanigans

It's a trick bonus.  As in get your trick bonus maxed before restarting and keeping the max trick bonus.  As in the bonus you get after you complete the level.

Right, but because you start in the same place as you normally would, it doesn't invalidate any earlier rules.

Because it's not TALLIED until after you've completed it, I always assumed that it was ignored

I have SRush, btw... i'm not fully ignorant this time around >_>

[Luxray]

...every score max in SRA involves spamming tricks then dying to play the level with the full trick bonus...

There is no score tallied in the run, only bonuses... this was brought up at the time and then dismissed, unless I'm mistaken about said chatroom shenanigans

It's a trick bonus.  As in get your trick bonus maxed before restarting and keeping the max trick bonus.  As in the bonus you get after you complete the level.

Right, but because you start in the same place as you normally would, it doesn't invalidate any earlier rules.

Because it's not TALLIED until after you've completed it, I always assumed that it was ignored

I have SRush, btw... i'm not fully ignorant this time around >_>

Rush and Rush Adventure both have this feature. You spam trick sets, die before you hit a checkpoint (to get the time bonus obv), start the level from the start and take the best possible route (Rush adventure just requires 100 rings within an alloted time. working on a guide for it) and finish.

You nooblets... I have gotten the perfect score as Sonic and Blaze for MH1, MH2, ML1, ML2, CC1, CC2, HS1 and all the hidden islands without death abuse. <_<
I am not sure, though, if I will be able to do the same with the other stages, because I have not tried.

Some levels like the Hidden Islands and The first 3 Zones are easy. Also Pirates Island (many opportunities for tricks within the level and 2-2:30 minutes, forget the time cap). Sky Babylon is probably the best example where this is used. Its near impossible for me to get 100 rings, 20 sets of tricks and 100 rings all at once. Tricks come first then i find the best possible route.

[Ring Rush]

Wait what?

I'm pretty sure I did all my scores without death abuse. And Sky Babylon 2 Blaze was going to be my example of a score you -couldn't- get with death abuse as the time limit combined with ring requirement is so tight, that restarting makes you lose it.

Anyways, I don't see death abuse as that big of a deal. Just make sure it is explicitly stated which games you cannot death abuse in (Sonic 2, SSR, etc).

[Luxray]

Also there is still a Rivals 2 rule missing regarding not earning scores in Free Play mode. The level results screen doesn't show a score in free play, but the score counter runs in the background and will print records to the statistics screen regardless: without the AI rival there to impose a time limit, score spamming is possible.

I will add that rule tomorrow.

Orly?

[Aitamen]

Um, I remember now what I was trying to say earlier, and will present it in a basic fashion so as to flesh out my reasoning...

Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).

SINGLE RUN...  watch this

Start Life 1
get trick bonus
die

START LIFE 2 (This run will be for points)

do run
GET POINTS FOR TRICK BONUS/TIME BONUS/WHATEVER
end run

Now, because of the wording, the SECOND run is still a FULL RUN WITHOUT DEATHS

Ok, example 2: (not relevant with Knux, which is why he gets his own specific rule for it)

Hill Top Zone, sonic (just because)

I get to the checkpoint, and I die... let's say I have a score of 200

I then finish the level with a score of 23000, which means I can submit a score of 22800, BECAUSE THE SECOND RUN GAVE ME THAT MANY POINTS

each life is a new run, and each run scores points.  As long as you don't reset the timer (which is banned in other rules), it doesn't count against your score, except in the case of knux in S2, because of the respawning of rings.  This is how the Rush rules allow
"Death Abuse" for scores.  The points aren't earned in a previous life, because they are not awarded until the completion of the level.  Thus, because all points are accumulated only in the final run, and the final run is the one submitted, I maintain that it's legit, until the rules are changed.

Also, why isn't there a score category for Introduction in KC?

[ieatatsonic]

Scores must be attained in a single continuous run (without deaths).

So this means you can't die in SA2 to lose time, doesn't it?

[Stefan]

Dying in sa2 would not only wipe your score to zero, but it would also reset your time to what it was at the checkpoint as well(it wouldn't help at all).

[EngiNerd]

SADX: Why are Mission Mode RA's not banned?

[Aitamen]

Yes necro, but my last post was bad. 

The "neither is dying after hitting a starpost" bit isn't redundant.  if it wasn't there, I could  get all the rings, hit a checkpoint, die, get all the rings, hit the next checkpoint, die, etc. I wind up with a 50k perfect bonus + 99900 Ring bonus + whatever points I earned during my last life, if that rule was removed.  It stops people like me from circumventing it, and it was never adequately responded to.